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#31
12-12-2008
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Well, first off, I feel I should just touch on the whole fangirls liking yaoi thing. There are plenty of guys who love the thought of two girl going at it, so why should it be considered odd that some females feel the same way about two guys? Women are attracted to guys who are sensitve, caring, and open, and a lot of yaoi charactes are like that, so it's natural for us to be pulled towards that fandom.
As for Ryou, I think it's a little hard to judge. There aren't many female characters in Yu-Gi-Oh, and almost all of them are spoken for in one way or anouther. Tea- in love with Pharoah Mai- has something going on with Joey, and then later on Valon (that is mostly one sided but she seems to care for him a little towards the end) Rebecca- literally clings to Yugi Serenty I think is left open because she doesn't really seem to return the affections of either guys after her, at least that I've seen. And as far as I know Izushu hasn't been snagged by anyone either. Asside from that though, the romance canidate for woman end there. Just about all the male character seem to act homosexual, though often it's just... well the way they act. Pegasus seems like a total flamer, even though his entire reason for everything bad that he did is to bring back his dead wife. And face it, if we ever saw a kid in real life spouting about things like friendship and the Heart of the Cards, we'd think he was leaning a certain way too. In my personal mind, no I don't think the creator intended Bakura to be gay. Yes he has flocking fangirl that he ignored, yes he has log hair and it totally cute, yes he is... well I could go on but we all know what I'm talking about. If he had been intended as gay, he would have shown some real tendencies, like actually crushing on a guy or something like that. But do I like to think of him paired up with guys because I'm a fangirl and it's my right? Yes, in that regard I am guilty. But that's the canon one. I would definitely call Ryou gay in Abridged, or at least Florence... I mean Yami Bakura. <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley2.png'> 
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#32
12-12-2008
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u guys do realise that ur arguing if an anime character is gay right <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley5.png'>
if every person who talked and acted gay was gay.......... i would be lol
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#33
12-12-2008
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I don't think Ryou was meant to have a sexuality in the context of the show... it just doesn't matter, that wasn't why he was made into a character. He was created to be the holder of the penultimate villain of the show while still being friends with the heroes. No romance involved. By the way, I'm not a fan of guys gogging after yuri either... but I think the way fangirls do it is more annoying, probably because girls tend to write more fanfiction and make more AMVs. It's just more out there. Also, it's a LOT more socially acceptable for girls to be making out with each other than for guys to. For guys, there's a HUGE gap between homosociality and homosexuality, whereas for girls it's much more of a smooth transition or bridge. Unfortunately, that's just how it is in society. Quote:
xDD That's really funny when you think about it, actually.
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#35
12-12-2008
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(Speed, I said that too, but truth it turned out to be quiet a fun debate lol )
In the end, I think that Mr Tas will not have made any of his characters the way they are with intend of having any effect on their sexuality, but merely in a way which he thinks will best help make his story/ make his characters work within that story and if 1 or 2 have come out a little gay, it will more likely be an mistaked side note of the writers mind than an intended action In this case, he has tried to make Bukura someone who is good at heart and wants to be friends with everyone, but lacks the strength of character to enforce his personalty on a crowd and so often he will become the forgotten member of a group, which leads him to have some serious self-confidence issues and made it so that when he does find a group to be with, he becomes very attached, attentive and affectionate towards the members of that group. And this can be easily mistaken for Gayness (I think it is also the reason he fells prey to the spirit in his puzzle, it is saying that because YuGi was able to get over his social problems and make friends, he was able to make himself a strong character so he was able to control and work with his puzzle spirit, but Bukura was unable to do this and so was made a weaker person, which allowed him to be enslaved by his puzzle spirit )
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#36
12-13-2008
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I like this post a lot. :3
It's interesting how Yuugi and Ryou foil each other. I could write a paper about that. :3 And yes, these debates are fun. We're not getting worked up over our opinions (well, I do sometimes but that's just how I get no matter the situation, lol, but I calm down and don't attack people for the most part) and it's just a good time we have together as TASers, no? =D
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#37
12-13-2008
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On another note: The irritating thing is, while he features in the manga a lot, they cut him out a lot in the anime. A lot of the scenes (eg, visiting Yugi in the hospital after the burning building incident in the beginning of Season 2) in the anime don't have him present while in the manga he was there with the rest of the group. His character is more "minor" in the anime, so it's really hard to tell the details about him. You could use the manga as a better source, but I haven't read much of it (yet). <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley5.png'> I wouldn't say there is any definite canon evidence about Ryo's sexual orientation...YGO is definitely not much of a romance. Even the most obvious couples (eg. Tea/Yugi) don't get very far, do they? I'd say since so much is left to the imagination here, you could think of Ryo as gay or straight, as you like.
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#38
12-13-2008
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Damn, a lot of posts have sprung up since I was last on; this thread is more popular than I thought it'd be. Before I write my reply, I just wanted to say to everyone here who thinks it's a stupid debate, why are you even bothering? If you think it's stupid, please don't post, because the people who check on this thread actually want to see an opinion to debate on, not, "this is stupid" If it was stupid, would anyone be posting here? Oh, and another thing, Ryou is not a cartoon character, he's an anime character. With that said, I'll move on.
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You see, creators will look at their character and think of it as just a character, but fans will look at that character and see it as a person with a life and personality of its own, that's just the way it works. So even if Kazuki Takahashi didn't intend it to happen, that's just the way it came out. /shrugs/ What you said about Ryou made sense, Sally, but I'm still believe he's homosexual. Lol, my gaydar is more sensitive then the norm living my life, and like Noroi said, I can just tell. (Thanks for agreeing with me, sweetheart.) Quote:
Yuugi and Ryou? /thinks about it/ I would think they should be very close friends who understand each other and share a similar burden, but as poor Ryou is normally left out I think not. /hugs Ryou/ He really should be a bigger character, he's got to be one of the most interesting people on the show. (Oh, and Sally, you say the reason you can't imagine Ryou gay is because you can't think of anyone on the show he'd be dating? I've always considered him and Marik, since the manga and anime are battle manga and anime there isn't as much conversation as I'd prefer, but if there were I just know they'd click.)
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#39
12-13-2008
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#40
12-13-2008
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Him and Marik? Eh, you do see a lot more Yami Bakura/Marik stuff out there but that's because they actually converse. I honestly couldn't give an opinion about Ryou/Marik. Quote:
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#41
12-13-2008
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#42
12-14-2008
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#43
12-14-2008
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(CARTOONS AND ANIMIE ARE SAME) For once we agree on something lol <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley2.png'>
Blaire, I made a mistake in criticizing this debate, but was just saying their is line and think we crossed it here, well I crossed it long time ago, but still lol Still, turned out to be a fun thing to do, after writing 2000words on whether Britain has Constitution or not As for Spirit Bukura protecting Ryu, Horoi think you give him way to much credit, he would not care about him at all, if it was not for the fact that he needs him to live. (as shown when he tries to ditch him for Mokubura's body, just after Peguris is beaten)
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#44
12-14-2008
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Exactly, anime is a type of cartoon. Saying that an anime character is not a cartoon character is like saying that a square is not a shape.
I do think that Yami Bakura likes Ryou in some way. An appreciation, as I put it. In the manga it's implied that he's had other hosts before Ryou. I think he likes Ryou and doesn't want him to die, but he doesn't treat Ryou like a friend the way Atem treats Yuugi like a friend.
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#45
12-15-2008
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#46
12-15-2008
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Also, I know I've said this already but I don't think what I said was the best way to describe what I was saying. I said that Yami Bakura could not feel love, but could probably feel lust? Well, I think he can love, it's just he doesn't bother with that sort of thing. I mentioned even before that my beliefs on him being half Thief King and half Zorc Necrophades? I actually remember I backed that up with this exact scene, lol. Well, the half of him that is the Thief King, although twisted, was still human and is still capable of feeling emotions, or so I believe. If you pay close enough attention he does rather become attached to Ryou in a way, and if left alone after a long time it is possible that it could develop. I've already expressed my views on Ryou, (homosexual, or bi-sexual), and maybe he could forgive him if given enough time to think about it. (You can tell from Ryou's personality he's a bit of a pushover at times). Oh, and I know this is a little off-subject, but I need to say this again, you can not call an anime character a cartoon character. When people hear cartoon they think of SpongeBob, and when they hear anime character they think of a - well, their favorite anime character? I'm not really sure, but anime has a deeper feel to it than a cartoon does, and call me obsessed but some anime characters are as real to me as actual people - they have lives and personalities of their own, unlike SpongeBob. But as I said, that's beside the point, weren't we talking about Bakura and episode 84? Quote:
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#47
12-15-2008
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sorry blarie have to disagree with you on both points:
1=Animie is just a type of cartoon, under the every definition of a cartoon. Sure it is not same as other cartoons, but the word cartoon has a broader meaning than just silly kids shows from USA, it can be used for internet CARTOONS, Information CARTOONS and Advisement CARTOON...etc, a cartoon is any form of "animated" TV/ firm/ writing (which is also what Animie actually means, so they even mean same thing) Animie is a cartoon in same way, an apple is a fruit. -I think you don't people to think Animie is a form of cartoon, because then you think, they will not take it as seriously, however don't worry as all cartoons can be serious if they wish to be and anyone who cannot see the deeper side to Animie, is not worth worrying about as it is there problem not yours. (sorry meant to put animated writing in as well, but was about 3 in morning and before ask, I couldn't back to sleep after one of my flat mates decided to wake us all up) 2=Here I think you are all seeing what you want to see, rather than what is there. Trust me, Ryou is nothing more than means to an end for the evil Spirit and he only keeps Ryou because he can use him. He only protects Ryou because his own interests are saved with him, and he would ditch Ryou the second he could, if he could get his own body or at less a better host.
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#48
12-16-2008
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I do think that Yami Bakura was kind of nervous about the slight possibility of Atem attacking Ryou. Even if I knew from logic that Atem wouldn't attack Ryou, there's still that itty bitty chance that he would and I know if I were him it'd feel really risky to me. I'd rather lose that one battle than have my body die and never get a chance again. Part of the reason why he enjoyed his loss is because when he reentered Ryou's body, he knew he had another chance.
Also, a cartoon can refer to a comic strip, not just anything you see on TV or in a movie. I do understand why anime fans wouldn't want to refer to their favorite serious foreign dramas or whatever as cartoons because as Fared said, people are afraid they won't take it seriously. However I think it's important to start looking at anime as a way to show that cartoons can be serious, and if western culture in general can see that cartoons can be serious as well. I mean, when The Simpsons and South Park were made, people were appalled by their material because they saw a cartoon and they thought that it was meant for children, but when they watched it they went, "This shouldn't be viewed by children what were you thinking??!" and the creators went, "...that's the point. It's not for children. It's a cartoon for ADULTS." Granted they are comedic satires, but I think the next step is to make serious cartoons in America not aimed at children, dramas like you see in anime. Maybe some exist, I don't really remember. :/
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#49
12-16-2008
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Oh, I just realized, I don't think you're able to surrender on your opponent's turn. So even if he had an idea of what was going on and wanted to forfeit, he could only do it on his own turn. So it really was all up to Yami...
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#50
12-16-2008
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Also something I'm skilled in is psychology, not only do I have a few mental illnesses of my own (AB, MPD, BID, MD, etc) but my mother herself is a psychiatrist and I've been reading books on syndromes and human behavior for years, (and as I've already mentioned, I've read the manga several times, I've done background information on Takahashi, watched all the Japanese and English interviews, watched the show in Japanese and English, and I've spent and spend my whole life around homosexual people - Ryou acts just like them)! I can say with 98% positivity that Yami Bakura wanted to save Ryou in that scene. The way he hesitated, the way he stared at Ryou, the look on his face, the way he defied Marik - I'm not denying he did it to save himself, that too, but he also did it for Ryou's sake. So do you still think I'm merely guessing or seeing things?- there is so much evidence behind my theory that I don't see how you can deny it or turn away. It's a bit obsessive, I know, but I'm proving a point and am one of the biggest YGO fans there are. P.S. As for anime being a cartoon, I guess it is in a way, but please call him an anime character (not a cartoon character) while we're talking about him, please? It's just something that bothers me, because even I think of SpongeBob when I hear cartoon - I can't be the only one.
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#51
12-17-2008
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Mate by the age of 12, I was reading and understanding literature at level of an average adult and had an IQ of 134, (just shame I had the spelling ability of 8 year old)
I did not fail a single subject at at any of my final exams (c-a) with my lowest being 1 C at RE and C,C at science, rest were top marks. so lets not use intellect as reasons to prove points here. In the end it is a pedantic point and one which will merely stoke our ego's. Plus it goes on using basic means of testing, which are all complete failures at showing the whole spectrum of intelligence anyway. As for being a psychiatrist, well my sister is currently in final year of training for that, but that does not make me good at it, (as my grade proved <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley6.png'> ) However I have always been good at reading people and their actions, this was for 1 reason, I realised early on that the easilest explanation is usually right one, people hate to emitted it, but Humans are pretty simple things really. (not everyone follows this rule, but on whole most people are easy enough to understand) And why'll I cannot say I know much about Takahashi, I can say that he never made this show about individual relationships of love, it is about group relationships and so on.....etc (just read whole of post 35) I am not saying that the spirit does not care for Ryou, but I am saying his reasons are selfish and when I saw him go to save Ryou, I saw him weighting up the chances of HIM dying and not being able to get HIS WANTS and the chances of success. I think that his smile/look was not at the thought of saving Ryou, but merely at thought of denying Maick On a final note mate, what people see in others, is merely a mirror of what see in themselves, maybe that is why you see him as caring (in its broadest sense) and I see him as practical.
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#52
12-17-2008
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Wow. Gone for a couple days and this thing just skyrocketed in posts. <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley1.png'>
Well my dissapointment in the scene was not that he didn't surrender, but that no one else thought of it. Sorry for not making myself clear, rereadin my post I noticed I was a tad confusing. It just felt like an easy solution to a strange problem. It does make sense that he'd be think more "Oh, why am I in pain?" and not "Well, if I surreneder I can go get myslef in taken care of." I just thought, why didn't anyone one else shout it out from the sidelines? Would have taken a couple seconds. Quote:
As for the whole 'How does Bakura feel about Ryou?' question. I think the evil spirit is using him for evil puposes, but it could become more if given the chance in my opinion. The potential is there, but as we all know and have stated, this is not a romance anime. If it had been allowed to play out, I would have liked to see where it could have gone.
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#54
12-17-2008
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You'll have to forgive me for being slightly inconsistent with my points.
I said that he doesn't care for Ryou at all, but then I later said that he has an appreciation for Ryou and has taken some kind of strange liking to him, but it's not the same as Yuugi and Atem's relationship at all, as Bakura and Ryou are not working together in anything and Bakura is more driven by selfish desires than anything really. I mean, Atem wouldn't stab Yuugi's arm to get what he wants, yet Bakura does so freely to Ryou. He doesn't do it out of some sadistic gay thing either (which is what some fangirls try to say...) but he does it because it won't hurt Ryou permanently and it'll help him get what he wants (the Millennium Rod). And I'm going to agree with Fat1Fared (again) and say that being that smart in literature and psychology or whatever doesn't make your opinion higher or more correct than anyone else's. Also this: Quote:
Now, I know you're an expert or whatever of YGO, but I still feel like you may take certain situations out of context, like the "clinging to Joey" thing... I assume you mean the time when in episode 14 of TAS when Ryou says, "That Kaiba bloke needs to get shagged," except it's the real episode and not abridged. You said that he was clinging to Joey during the duel, but he and Honda were actually restraining him. I know I said this before, but you seemed to have ignored it... Also I would like to know where you got the information that Takahashi was bi. It's not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious. Plus I have to agree with whoever said that if Ryou was really meant to be gay, it would have been a bit more obvious, at least if it mattered.
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#55
12-18-2008
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lol Guilty as charged.
I'll be the first to admit I'm hopeless when it comes to this kind of stuff. I'll try to realistic when it comes to the relationship stuff (well, as realistic as one can be when it concerns fictional characters <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley7.png'> ) but I can say that yes, I like the thought of Ryou getting all cuddly with another guy. It's cute, and the boy really deserves soem lurv, and maybe a sandwich too. He's kinda skinny, the poor thing.
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#56
12-18-2008
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I think the only thing in your whole post that we agree on, Fat1Fared, is that humans are very simple things; there are some people who are strange and shadowed, and I'm going to have to classify Yami Bakura with them. (I could read the full edition of Lord of the Rings in 5th grade, so don't think you're too cool, sweetie. Lol)
As for Ryou and Bakura-Kun in episode 84, you're right in a way, Fat1Fared, but you're a little off. I didn't mean the smile he was wearing when Atem-Kun hit him, but the look he was giving Ryou while he was whimpering and bleeding. I'm not saying that hte only reason he saved Ryou was for the boy's sake, it was for himself too, but a lot of people got the impression that he wanted to save Ryou - My sister isn't a yaoi fangirl, but she agrees with me full-heartdly on thins. If the manga had been a romance manga, I feel sure that Yami Bakura and Ryou would grow closer. I believe Sally is right when she explains that he's attached to Ryou in a strange way, and also correct when she says that Atem wouldn't stab Yugi to get what he wants - but not all love is peaceful, is it? I mean, Yugi was scared of Atem at first, but in the end he got over it (this isn't a yaoi refrence, just an example); the two of them are sharing souls, no matter what way they do they can't ignore the other, they will always be there, it would only make sense that Ryou (as a human) would begin to feel some sort of connection with his other soul. (I don't mean sexual, it could be, but I'm just talking about love in general). Honestly, I wasn't talking about that particular episode, Sally. Sorry about not answering this question (or whatever it is) sooner, I guess I must have over-looked it. I was thinking of two episodes, the episode where Kaiba threatened to commit suicide (I think everyone knows that one) and the episode where Mai and Anzu-Chan battled. That particular scene wasn't in the manga, but in the manga he was "clinging" to him, yes. Kazuki Takahashi, there was a Japanese bio on him that I translated that said it all. /shrugs/ I wanted to know a little more about the creator. P.S. Ah, but I never said Ryou was meant to be gay, he just came out that way. Characters all develop over time, sometimes more then the creators themselves notice; I should know, I have many characters that belong to only me - my sister can point things out about them that I never even noticed. I'm sure if you would get over yourself, and just look over Ryou's speech, actions, and dress then you would see it. P.S. And Fat1Fared, just because me and Noroi are fangirls doesn't mean we know nothing about the show, or how to read faces. And since I've brought up Noroi, I wanted to say sweetheart that I don't support yaoi because it looks cute, or sexy, or whatever you call it - but because it fits right with the characters. Sometimes, just for fun, I'll look at impossible yaoi couples, but I wouldn't go to such lengths to defend them as I do now with Ryou-Kun. I give you the same advice I give Sally, Fat1Fared, but something tells me that you don't look for naught then you don't want too.
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#57
12-18-2008
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(I could read the full edition of Lord of the Rings in 5th grade, so don't think you're too cool, sweetie. Lol)
Good for you, I finished them all, by age of 12, (including the Silmarillion) what does that prove, and that was my point. Mate, read my post again please, I was making the point, our intelligences and all other things you were happily saying to make your OPINION seem more valid than mine, mean nothing here and that in end we are only going on our own VIEWS of what is there, truth is mate, neither of us know whether he is GAY OR NOT/ OR IF THEY ARE IN LOVE OR NOT. The only person who knows that is his maker and we are just guessing at best. PS sometimes being less intelligent helps as it means you can take a step back and stop looking for hidden meanings. Next I was joking about Fan-Girl bit, Noroi realised that, stop taking live so seriously mate, it is all just bit of fun. Finally, well you can believe what you want, but I personally believe that this show was never about this point and so Tak would not bother putting it in as it would be Inconsequential to the plot. He does not love Ryou and you saying he could is more just what you want to happen, in MY VIEW. I am not saying he feels nothing, but think if Ryou had nothing to offer him, he would be off in second and though I will emit that I never saw season 4, (so cannot say if he did anything there,) can say from what I saw he wasn't that complicated, just another villain wanting power. I personally think you could argue Honda(Tristan) is a more complicated character than Bukaru's evil spirit.
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#58
12-18-2008
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My turn.
I've been watching this thread without saying much so far, and there have been some interesting viewpoints, but I feel the need to speak now. First off, I agree with Fat1Fared that intelligence has absolutely NO bearing on this subject. None. Besides, bickering about who's smarter than who just makes everyone look silly, because there will always be someone smarter than you. If I wanted to, I could give you a list of my own academic credentials. Take it from me, they aren't too shabby, better than anyone else has listed, but that's just the point: There will always be someone smarter, and it just becomes a petty war. Besides, as far as I can tell Yu-Gi-Oh has no relation to any IQ, GPA, or SAT score. All right? So please, let this be the last post about our own intelligence. Back on topic. I believe the major thought that is being approached here is this: -Kazuki Takahashi is the only person who knows for sure what Ryou's sexual orientation is, and obviously he didn't think it was important enough to the plot of Yu-Gi-Oh to make a point of establishing it. It's like when JK Rowling revealed that Dumbledore was homosexual-- she'd known all along, of course, but that orientation had no effect on the plotline of her books and so was never brought up in the story. This is similar. Ryou is almost always in the background in Yu-Gi-Oh. Someone mentioned not having seen Season 4-- well, as far as I know Bakura doesn't show up in Season 4 once. Ever. And even when Bakura is there, physically present, nine times out of ten his yami's in control. Ryou honestly doesn't really have a chance to express any orientation, and Takahashi didn't try to remedy that because it would have had minimal to no effect on the plot anyway. As far as Yami Bakura goes, once again there's the issue of plot coming first. YB is so incredibly driven that anything not directly related to his scheming or the carrying out of his strategies is abandoned, and that obviously includes romance of any sort. Protecting his host, Ryou, from the attack is necessary for his plots, and that's how he would rationalize the action. Even if there is "something more" there he would never admit it. And concerning "under the right conditions": Well, that's what fan-fic is for. The "right conditions" were never reached in canon Yu-Gi-Oh. If someone wants to create the "right conditions" in their own imaginations and writing, and then see where that goes, that's their right. Will it sponsor debate like this? Of course, because it isn't canon, and there is no proof for it in canon. On the other hand, there is equally little proof against it. That goes for all of the pairings brought up here so far, and probably rather a few others. Well, that's my two bits. And here's my lame ending.
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#59
12-18-2008
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Yes it's the English version but it was the first one I found and they didn't do any visual editing in this scene. If you mean a different part entirely then by all means post that clip instead, but don't try to tell me that this part in particular is hinting toward Ryou's homosexuality because I won't believe it. Quote:
I don't think he was clinging to Yuugi out of romance or whatever. I think he felt more empathetic or something like that. I don't feel like going into an analysis or whatever right now but I'm keeping my options open. Quote:
Seriously. I don't need to say anymore and neither does anyone else. Just thank you is enough.
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#60
12-18-2008
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Well I am at a top English Law School, so I must be the smartest <img src='/images/emoticons/smiley7.png'> only joking, though my Mummy does say I'm special and my Daddy says I am special NEEDS
(But can I make 1 more little point please, though this me being a grammar Bully, for a MASTER of English, he does have a strange way of writing it, some interesting sentences there, sorry can't help myself) TP, you have pretty much said what I was trying to say, only Mr Taz knows what he is and because it has nothing to do with plot, it is simply ignored. And because it is not actually in the story, it cannot actually be there, meaning that anything we say, is merely what we think/wish COULD happen. <ok> In all agree with you on very point <ok> PS it was well written too. i only said about not seeing season 4, because when I was making the point, that I have seen nothing to say that he is a very complicated character, (evil spirit) but was emitting that i do have a gap in my knowledge where something important could have happened. Sally, it is like I said, though I do not think Ryou is gay or "NOT" gay, I do think he is very caring and attentive to his friends, so agree with you, this was not him loving YU Gi, merely trying to comfort him
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